Oren,



We’re secular. See our site for our goals.

The historical Jewish nation is a nation of the yoke of Torah and commandments. “The nation’s faith is naught but Torah and commandments,” according to the RaSaG.

The new Jewish nation is in a process of formation or degeneration; history will decide.

The religious and Charedi public is a religious cult, not a nation. It is highly doubtful it will survive.

All these were the opinion of the late Leibowitz.



Daat Emet

Oren:

The Jewish religion, as practiced by the religious and Charedi communities, is one of the most despicable things. If you read Professor Leibowitz’s books, you would have seen that he thought so. The religious live according to texts [the Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch] which are not relevant to the reality of our lives.



Sincerely,



Daat Emet

But Leibowitz himself claimed that religious Judaism has no program. If that’s so, how does your Leibowitz-style religious find expression?



Daat Emet

The religious community treats him like an apostate. The majority decides the path it will follow, be they mistaken, misleading, or purposely wrong.



Daat Emet

You might be right; it might not be possible to create a new Jewish identity without religious content. But the other alternative –Charedi religious people — is one of the worst and most corrupt, and it, too, will not succeed. Leibowitz’s teachings will maintain their integrity, but it doesn’t seem that they can be applied to a large group which would claim to be the continuation of the Jewish nation.

I met some of Leibowitz’s lesser students and their situation is pitiful. They are caught between the Heavens (Halacha) and earth (wisdom and rationality), which makes them feel like they belong to none of the groups (religious, Charedi, Reform, Conservative, or secular) which identify themselves as part of the Jewish collective.



Daat Emet

It’s true that Leibowitz’s approach to secular Jews is as you say, but the religious cult, too, will fall apart.

About the connection between Jews: it is not a rational tie but a collective feeling of responsibility and a shared identity.

If you feel a connection to people identified as Jews, even if they don’t fulfill the commandments, then you are part of our nation. If you do not feel that connection, then even if you fulfill the commandments you are not part of our nation.



Daat Emet

You might be right; it might not be possible to create a new Jewish identity without religious content. But the other alternative –Charedi religious people — is one of the worst and most corrupt, and it, too, will not succeed. Leibowitz’s teachings will maintain their integrity, but it doesn’t seem that they can be applied to a large group which would claim to be the continuation of the Jewish nation.

I met some of Leibowitz’s lesser students and their situation is pitiful. They are caught between the Heavens (Halacha) and earth (wisdom and rationality), which makes them feel like they belong to none of the groups (religious, Charedi, Reform, Conservative, or secular) which identify themselves as part of the Jewish collective.



Daat Emet

I think your chances and mine are about equal. I don’t see the value in any other sort of life; each man will die in his own faith. I’ll die as a commandment-fulfilling Jew who loves science, and apres moi le deluge.



Oren

It is not possible to discuss Leibowitz-style Judaism, because it does not exist. The late Leibowitz opined that there is no group with a Jewish religious program.



Daat Emet