Anon asked Staff ago OK, you succeeded in proving that there is no G-d, that the Torah is a work of literature, etc. Good going!! But despite it all, I, as a secular person, will send my children to a religious school in light of the failure in my education and the educations of my secular friends. The higher values I received in the secular schools was to leave Israel, treason and cheating is normal, drugs are socially accepted (even amongst the enlightened), the violent win, etc. Faced with the test of reality, one can easily see where the secular public stands as opposed to where the religious public does. Where is there more drugs? Where is violence growing? Where is the percent of divorces higher? Where are the percentages of intermarriage and of leaving Israel higher? In which schools are there difficulties in reading comprehension? Only one whose eyes and ears are closed does not see that the secular public is at the lowest level and licentiousness is growing faster than even in other nations. I think that in another three decades the percentage of secular people in Israel will be so low as not to have any influence, given the growth in the number of dogs and drop in the number of children amongst secular families. Even in the army one can see a great rise in the number of kippah wearers contrasted with the number of secular draft evaders. (As a secular person, why should I even be in the army? The whole source of our sovereignty over Israel is from the Torah.)
Guy (a secular person)
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Guy,
You state that you are a secular person but the phrasing and content of your words are religious, and it is obvious you do not know the secular ideology.
I will not discuss the nonsense you wrote, making it seem that the religious education is more successful than the secular, because this is not the place to show that your facts are wrong. I will discuss the ideals taught by each of the two systems (secular and religious).
The goal of Daat Emet is to prove that the two Torahs (Written and Oral) are human creations and not of the best quality. If you have been convinced by our words and think religion is a human creation, and yet choose a religious education, you have done so knowing that the Torah and Halacha were written by man 2000 years ago.
On the other hand, in light of our essays < a href= https://daatemet.org.il/daathalacha/en_ethics.html>Morality in Halacha, Gentiles in Halacha, and The Status of Women in Halacha — many people who have been convinced that the Torah is a human creation have made decisions the opposite of yours.
We will present before you the secular covenant in contrast to the religious: The UN charter states “One of the goals of the United Nations is to encourage respect for and universal protection of human rights and fundamental liberties for all of Earth’s inhabitants, with no distinction between races, sexes, language, or religion…All humans are born free and equal in dignity and rights…Any theory of superiority based on religion and racial distinction is false…”
The religious charter could be formulated as “one of the goals of the Jewish nation, the nation chosen from all other nations, is to encourage the fulfillment of Torah and the commandments amongst the Jews alone and to protect the rights of commandment-fulfilling Jews with a clear distinction between races, sexes, and religions…all people were born to serve the Jewish people, as proclaimed in the supreme Divine Torah.”
N.B. The state of Israel signed the UN charter on February 2, 1979, which then was valid for the State of Israel, based on paragraph 19 (2). I don’t understand what you are doing in the State of Israel, which champions the values of equality and the rights of man, with no distinction between religions, races, and sexes, and which fights the racist values of the Jewish religion.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Guy,
I will try once again to explain myself.
For every thing a person wants to achieve must answer two questions. First, what does he want to achieve–what are his goals? Second, how will he achieve his goals?
So it is in education. A man must decide what sort of education he wants and consider which is the ideal and best education, what values are the highest. He must also decide which educational methods are the most effective in reaching his goal.
In my earlier answer I wrote that I would deal only with the first question: “What is the ideal education,” and not with how to implement it. That is the field of professionals who deal with educational issues and the appropriate and proper didactics for young students and adults.
You once again repeat your claim about the methods of education, as though you hadn’t read my words at all.
You completely ignored the secular ideal vs. the religious ideal and once again took up the cheap and defective style, like a dog sniffing its own vomit.
Now let me ask you a question:
What do you see as the values of the Torah?
Please bring sources from the traditional religious literature. Please do not be like the religious leaders who are asked what the values of religion are, and who answer in the spirit of the secular ideology of equality and freedom…with no source or support from Chazal literature.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Tomer,
As to your first question, my identity really isn’t necessary and isn’t relevant. The content and substance of my words are important. Accept the truth, no matter who says it.
As to your second question, I think the secular values as reflected in the UN Charter are the loftiest values and I am prepared to fight for them. I see freedom of expression, religion, and creation, equality, and critical thinking as the loftiest values. Your words “the ‘secular values’ are based on Man’s evil inclination” show utter ignorance of secular values. You, like Guy, make no distinction between ideal secular values and their application. I suppose what throws you off is the animalistic sights on the TV; you mistakenly attribute those to secular values.
Let me ask you: what do you think are proper values?
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Yehuda,
My words do not stem from hate, but from a steadfast opposition to the religious ideology as reflected in the Talmud and the Shulchan Aruch. If you agree with a lot of what I say, you must join the uncompromising fight against the religious public.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear “Expert,”
From your response to Guy and Tomer it can be seen that you never seriously dealt with their words, you made do with derision and running away from reality. Not only television reflects the sorry state of the secular, so do the secular “educational” institutions. The situation there is getting worse from day to day and it is difficult to see the light at the end of the tunnel, given the amount of drugs and violence which reigns without limits in those institutions. Why shouldn’t a 12 year old take drugs or stab his friend or rape his cousin when there is no law and no judge, when every person does what he thinks is best, when the courts rule that a father is limited in how he punishes his child, and the child must be allowed to “develop in a democratic and enlightened fashion.” Despite all the ideals (which are now a dream that I hope will someday come true) of the secular public, you did not answer Guy’s painful and difficult question about the vast gap between the incidents of violence/rape/divorce/drugs etc. in the secular society vs. the religious society.
In conclusion, even if there is truth in your revolt and your slanders against religion and its believers, the Jewish religious society still proves itself more than any other society in the world over the course of thousands of years.
Anat (who grew up in a religious household)
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Anat,
From your words, “the ideals (which are now a dream that I hope will someday come true) of the secular public” I understand that you admit and agree that the secular ideology is preferable to the religious ideology; to support this claim, see our essay Violence in the Charedi-Religious Sector.
But you claim, as did your predecessors (Tomer and Guy) that in practical terms violence/rape/divorce/drugs are more often found in the secular community than in the religious (a reality quite possible in a close society).
I noted and emphasized in my earlier answers that I am not interested in getting into the issue of how to educate the youth so we will see better results. That is the role of professionals.
I agree with the sharp criticism against the secular public which does not manage to implement to a reasonable extent its lofty values. But the criticism of the religious public is not only about its criminal acts, but also about its very values, and that is what must be emphasized.
Take, for example, the Halachic permission to hit the Daat Emet people because they distribute critical material. Do secular people hit Charedi who distribute pamphlets?
More examples: the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin was carried out by a religious man who thought, and still thinks, that he fulfilled a commandment of religious zealotry, as did Pinchas in killing the Zimri and the Midianite.
Avi Dictner, as head of the GSS, said that the religious public, zealous for the sake of a Greater Israel, might drag us into a religious war with Muslims throughout the world. The murder of Muslim worshippers was carried out by a religious Jew who strictly followed the law (Baruch Goldstein).
All the criminal and despicable acts above were done by permission of ideological religious permission.
In other words, violence in the religious community is considered a commandment, and would be considered despicable and a criminal offense in the secular society. Elijah the prophet, who killed 400 of Baal’s [false] priests would have been sentenced to 400 life sentences in the secular law courts.
In conclusion, I will deal with what you wrote at the end: “the Jewish religious society still proves itself more than any other society in the world.” This false image of the Jewish nation can’t change the facts. The Jewish nation never put the world’s population at the head of its concerns. All its efforts were for the “members of the club,” the Jews who fulfilled the Torah and the commandments. The secular society (be they gentiles or Jews) are concerned for all people, with no distinction between races, religions, or genders.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet