Anon asked Staff ago You once again announce that “one is forbidden by the Torah to return a lost item to a gentile.”
I have not found any such prohibition, only that one is not obligated to return it to him.
If you ask: is this moral? Indeed, there is no moral obligation to return a lost item to a Jew, either. Why is there no moral obligation to return a lost item to a Jew? Because this is a lost item, which the owner has mentally (not Halachically) despaired of ever seeing again. Therefore everyone [the Halachic arbiters–D.E.] admit that this is not like theft [and since it is not like theft, returning the item goes over and above the law–D.E.]. Today, the custom of returning lost items has become a moral law, but it really is not so. And whatever the Torah innovated was for the Jewish people, who are considered one family. To strengthen the family bonds, the Torah commanded we return lost items [to Jews only].
The Torah did not want us strengthening spiritual ties with the gentile family, but — as has already been ruled — to elevate the nation of Israel and its G-d.
This is as the author of the Yam Shel Shlomo wrote, that if he wanted to return the item for love of the idolater, he is forbidden to do so, for we are a nation which shall dwell alone, not amongst the gentiles, etc.
And may the good Lord atone for him and for His nation.
Chayim Sha’elu
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Chayim,
As a student who deals with Talmudic issues, you should have noticed that you contradict yourself.
At first you wrote that there is no prohibition against returning a lost item to a gentile, and at the end you wrote “if he wanted to return the item for love of the idolater, he is forbidden to do so.”
I will cite the source for the prohibition against returning a lost item to a gentile:
“And one who returns a lost item to a gentile — of him does the Scripture say: ‘To the utter ruin of moist and dry alike; the Lord will never forgive him’ (Deuteronomy 29:18)” (Sanhedrin 76b).
Rashi explained: “One who returns a lost item to a gentile — he made a gentile equal to a Jew, and shows that he does not consider the returning of lost items a Divine commandment, for he does so even to a gentile, about whom he was not commanded.”
One who returns a lost item to a gentile will never be forgiven by G-d.
Your words support our main claim: Jewish morality applies only to members of the club. To gain acceptance to the club you need two entry tickets:
1. Be a Jew
2. Fulfill the Torah and the commandments.
There is no commandment to return lost items to gentiles or to Jews who do not fulfill the Torah and the commandments, nor to give them charity, to love them, to save them when their lives are in danger on the Sabbath, etc. See the essay Morality in Halacha.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Chaim,
The prohibition against returning a lost item to a gentile is a specific which illustrates the whole, showing that the Halachic legal system discriminates between people, contradicting the values of the enlightened world. To keep from getting involved in hair-splitting, let us bring another example.
If a gentile merchant erred and gave extra change to a Jewish customer, there is no need for the customer to return the excess.
Thus did Maimonides write: “The gentile’s error is as his lost item, and permitted” (Laws of Theft and Loss 11:4).
Another example: The ox of a Jew which gores the ox of a gentile is exempt, etc. See the essay Gentiles in Halacha.
In Western countries based on the values of the enlightened world you will find no law or article which permits harming the foreigner or forbids marrying him and returning his lost item. A country whose laws are like the laws of Halacha would not be accepted into the European Union.
I have a question for you: Do you really and truly believe that the laws brought in the Talmud are acceptable and preferable laws for an enlightened country?
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Yigal,
I suggest you ask Chaim (who posted the original question) whether he would return a lost item to a gentile. From his words it seems he justifies the prohibition against returning a lost item to a gentile.
As to your words, in principle you are correct; there are instances in which we should discuss the society in its real aspects, for example, the Israeli society which champions enlightened values. Until recently there was a law (which has since been repealed), section 351 of the Israeli Criminal Code, which forbade homosexual acts even between two consenting adults. It carried a penalty of 10 years imprisonment. At the same time there were instructions from the Attorney General not to charge people for violating this law.
In this case, where most of the country’s laws match modern values and aspire to apply it by changing the written law (as really happened) the society may be judged by its actions on a single specific matter.
But this is not the case for the Jewish religious legal system.
Most of it, and we may take the risk of saying all of it, does not match basic Western values. Moreover, in principle the values of Halacha are based on the principles of inequality and of not giving freedom to people. In addition, the rabbis do not plan to change the dry written law. In light of this, it is not correct to ignore the dry law.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Chaim,
With these words you agree with ours. The Jewish religious laws are based and rest on the assumption that the “Jewish nation” is the chosen people, is the best and most supreme nation, and therefore they deserve privileges.
It is precisely against this outlook that Daat Emet has come out.
The legal systems based on modern values do not distinguish between people. One who murders a scientist is like one who murders a peddler. One who murders a prime minister is like one who murders a common person, and this is one of the great achievements of Western culture — there is one law for all citizens, be they Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or atheist.
In contrast, the Orthodox public continues to preserve the view of the old world and thinks it owns the “Divine” truth, just as the Muslim and the Christian think.
Those who read our essays in depth will immediately see that the Talmudic Sages were people who lived in villages near the Tigris and the Euphrates some 2000 years ago, cut off from the classic Greek revolution in thought and science. They dealt with nonsense beliefs of amulets and magic, and in their arrogance they attributed it to G-d. If that were not enough, they considered themselves wise men and intellectuals to the extent that they ruled laws as though Jewish blood were redder.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet
jsadmin Staff answered 22 years ago
Dear Chaim,
When you wrote “That is what our father in the heavens wants” you ended the discussion between us.
I know “the will of our father in the heavens” well; it is written in the Talmud and the books of religious law.
You negate your own will and thoughts in favor of these texts, with the excuse that these are the words of the living G-d.
According to you it is not relevant whether the Talmud is racist, discriminatory, awkward and archaic. Your belief that the Talmud reflects G-d closes the lid on any discussion.
All you have to do is read the essays on the portions of Shoftim and Va’etchanan to understand that Halacha is a human creation, even according to the religious arbiters whom you credit with reviving the day.
N.B. Perhaps you should do a quick check amongst your friends and see if they would return a lost item to a gentile or give back his error in making change.
Sincerely,
Daat Emet